daniel, "On another note: These new visits by local elders will probably turn into a really retarded, boring thing in a few years, just like the visits from the Service Overseers at the bookstudy. Anyone remember that lame "arrangement"? No one wants to hear some kind of "special" talk given by their own local Joe Bob Elder. And three times a year!? Goodness gracious --it's just going to be the same thing over and over again." Amen that that!! The only difference I can see is that I'm sure the circuit elders will be delivering a WTS outline as opposed to coming up with material on their own. Suggested themes: "Glory God with your valuable things", "Do not forsake our Christian meetings", and "Remember, if you don't pass out mags, you will die at the Big A".
Doubting Bro
JoinedPosts by Doubting Bro
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224
News from Bethel Heavy
by cinnamon1642 inpioneer hour change is legit.
letters are being mailed out soon to all congregations for announcement in early october right before the tract campaign starts.. .
elimination of circuit overseers.
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224
News from Bethel Heavy
by cinnamon1642 inpioneer hour change is legit.
letters are being mailed out soon to all congregations for announcement in early october right before the tract campaign starts.. .
elimination of circuit overseers.
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Doubting Bro
Snakes, Great thought on the MTS boys. I didn't even think about them but given their level of indoctrination, they would make perfect "circuit elders". Plus, a few that I've met have delusions of grandeur and this will feed right into that. On the timetable regarding the real estate, I'm thinking this is just in response to the market being down. If the market were to rebound or someone to offer them higher than market price for their properties, they will jump on it (like any good business man would do). Once I started recognizing the WTS as a business instead of a religion, all of their decisions became so easy to understand and anticipate.
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224
News from Bethel Heavy
by cinnamon1642 inpioneer hour change is legit.
letters are being mailed out soon to all congregations for announcement in early october right before the tract campaign starts.. .
elimination of circuit overseers.
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Doubting Bro
This sounds legit. The only thing I'm surprised about is that instead of choosing 1 local PO to be the new CO, they're going to use a committee approach. If you take the average 20 congos in a circuit and split it up among 4 guys, that's only 5 congregations per person (or 5 guys and then 4 per). This almost sounds like there will be a "super-BOE" for the circuit. How about a new title "Circuit Elder"? Think about it. This actually could help them with both the impending shortage of COs as well as help deal with the loss of local elders that they've been facing for some time. Getting men to "reach out" is becoming more and more difficult and they even had a DC part about that subject this year. I think the possibility exists for either 1) the continued consolidation of congregations (especially English for the moment) or 2) the elimination of local BOEs. I recall when I was an elder picking up on the disdain the WTS/COs/DOs had for local BOEs in general. It was barely disguised in various communications. So, if you had a circuit BOE and then allowed meeting parts etc to be handled by MS or some new title (bring back Congregation Servants and have them do much of the work the elders do now but no JCs) you could come away with even more control because you could select the most hard core company men to serve on the circuit body. Every BOE that I've seen has always had its mix of conservative and liberal elders. You can't get rid of the liberal ones because there's too much administrative work to do. But, this way you could still have them do the grunt work, but greatly limit their influence. Also, you eventually wouldn't need as many men.
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22
Je suis le percepteur! (French tax on WTS)
by ezekiel3 infrom the official news site for jws (http://www.jw-media.org/newsroom/index.htm?content=/region/europe/france/english/releases/religious_freedom/fra_e041006.htm) .
notice the highlight, i wonder why this factoid was included??.
french high court confirms 60-percent confiscatory tax measure on religious donations.
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Doubting Bro
Does anyone know whatever happened on appeal to the EU courts?
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15
What a New C.O. Arrangement Might Do
by metatron infirstly, laying off c.o.
's would not solve the problem of appointing elders by agreement of the governing body.
as long as they are appointed remotely, these elders could be looked upon as agents of the watchtower society.
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Doubting Bro
Jeff - I believe you're correct. All the local parishes belong to a diocese. Several of the dioceses have had serious financial issues stemming from paying the child abuse settlements. A few have even filed bankruptcy (Spokane, San Diego,and Oregon just to name a few from a goggle search). BUT, however the Catholic church has it set up, its done in a way to protect the Vatican. In my opinion, I could see the WT reorganizing in a way similar to how the RCC is set up. Not being Catholic, I get the sense that the Vatican still exercises a large amount of control over the church (unlike say the Baptists that are decentralized). In many ways, I see the WT as a want-to-be RCC (pope=GB, all the layers of hierarchy, DFing - an extreme version of excommunication, confession, etc) so they really should copy their set-up if they want to protect themselves from liability.
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What a New C.O. Arrangement Might Do
by metatron infirstly, laying off c.o.
's would not solve the problem of appointing elders by agreement of the governing body.
as long as they are appointed remotely, these elders could be looked upon as agents of the watchtower society.
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Doubting Bro
Also, remember that many cities have "City Overseers" already - unless this has changed in the last year & a half. In a few cases that I know about, this particular elder has more pull than many of the COs because they develop a good relationship with the branch office. I know one city overseer and I have a pretty limited knowledge of what the job entails. This person is also chair of the HLC but I'm not sure if that's because he's the city overseer or if he just wanted to do it. Not all areas are covered by this arrangement but they could easily expand it. These guys receive no money or other support from the WTS just like someone on the HLC or working in administration at the convention (which this guy does as well).Meta has a good point, since the WTS approves all elders, getting rid of the COs doesn't severe their liability. Sorry about the formatting, I'm using Firefox.
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INTRIGUE, SPYING, DO & CO INSIDE INFO @ THE SPANISH EXJW FORUM
by iloowy inthe following is a translation of a message to extj.com/foro (let's call it the spanish jwd).
mary, david, once again ... did you know that you are the new watchtower in many circuits?
original post in spanish .
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Doubting Bro
I distinctly recall a private conversation with a CO who was highly critical of some WTS policies and the general communications between himself & the US branch. I was just becoming "awake" and I was stunned that he was saying such negative things. I didn't have much of a reaction to him because I think he realized from some of my comments that I wasn't a complete believer any longer and quite frankly I was afraid it was a trap. But, at the end of the day, while he & other COs that I've had private conversations with may not be happy with some things, I find it difficult to believe that many would actually leave. Just look at the long time Bethelites that were given the boot. How many have shown up here? How many have faded or DA'ed? At the end of the day, they have some of the same issues leaving that the r&f do, family ties, "friends", etc on top of losing their job. Even if they reduce or eliminate the CO position (which I think is a real possibility due to cost savings/legal issues), these displaced COs are going to be leaning heavily on local congos to provide employment & living arrangements. I have my doubts that these guys would be leading any sort of mass exodus, at least at first. Interesting thread
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40
Misquotes from the "Reasoning Book" re: Cross (scans included)
by AlphaOmega inthe "reasoning book" claims that the 1874 edition of the imperial bible dictionary verifies the idea that jesus was crucified on a stake.
however, when you check the reference with the imperial bible dictionary, you see that it acutally is not as clear cut as that.. as usual, the infamous "..." of the watchtower has been used to edit out any opposing ideas in the source that they cite.. i know that this may have been mentioned before, but the scans of the imperial bible dictionary that are floating around the internet are from later editions, hence the page numbers are not those cited in the reasoning book.. .
http://i36.tinypic.com/2ilc9cx.jpg.
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Doubting Bro
I never really gave much thought as to how Jesus was executed and generally thought that if you were a Christian, it didn't matter how he died but why. And, given that I was raised a JW, I'm sure I got that idea from the WT. So, why on earth would they dishonestly quote from a source? It seems clear to me once again that they are only interested in attempting to defend their position regardless of the means. And, they want to paint the rest of Christianity as being the anti-Christ. I'm not sure why this pissed me off so badly, but it does. Arrogance and a feeling that no one would ever catch them. If you are teaching "truth" you DON'T mislead. God, at this point I would be shocked if they actually truthfully quoted anyone. Every time I think I've seen it all, a new one pops up. Thanks for the information!
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JWD is a big ol' crutch!!!....and a marriage counseling update
by oompa inand thank the great apostagod i found it, cause i was quite crippled and needed crutches.
waking up messed me up in many ways and has strained my marriage beyond belief as my wife is still a very hard core jw.
i have used jwd as a support group, and it is very good as that (my shrink said i needed to find one).
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Doubting Bro
oompa,
That sounds great. I'm really glad to hear that things are taking a turn for the better. I hear what you're saying about JWD being a crutch. I know there will be other places that will spring up, but just having a spot to vent or listen to others vent about similar issues is a great release.
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Yes I am a real person
by BonaFide inthanks for many posts to my situation.
yes i am a real person, and if you want to pm me and ask details, i would be happy to give any details you want.
it is a little disconcerting to read how some doubt i am telling the truth, this is a tough time for me, but i still respect that you need some proof.
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Doubting Bro
BF,
OTWO has great advice. You know the rules, use them to your advantage. According to page 119 of the Flock book, "Accusers should be willing to assume their responsibility as was required in Israel". So, you get to hear the specific accusations. Same page, you can present witnesses yourself. That person you spoke with on the phone, she can act as a witness for you. Also, you may want to remind the BOE that you believe this other person is committing the sin of "bearing false witness" and "slander" and the BOE should take action against that person if you are found not guilty.
The problem I see is that they could probably ask enough people enough leading quesitons to get you on the ever popular "loose conduct". You know how broad that category is and there's probably not a human alive that hasn't done something that fits into the JW loose conduct definition.
Maintain your innocence and make notes of any breach in procedure. You'll need that for your appeal since these guys are obviously out to get you. Do not admit to anything. It will be used against you.
Can I ask why these guys are going after you so hot & heavy? Do you have friends on the service desk,DOs, COs that can help you out?
I understand you don't want to get df'ed because you don't want to lose contact with your family. But, remember, even if you fight this one back, those elders will be gunning for you. I would suggest you move (if possible) as far away as you can and start over.
I think your story shows how the cult will kill its wounded to make an example of what will happen to anyone that falls out of line. Do you still think the WTS is "Gods channel"? I'm guessing this episode really showed you it isn't.
I wish the best to you. PM me if you like. I'm really sorry you're having to deal with this BS.